Adult Non-Surgical Palatal Expansion

[katsface]

This is just a hypothesis, but I still think it's possible that you wouldn't need lower jaw surgery even if you're reversing extractions. Here's why I think that:

If you align a normal sized lower arch without first expanding a too small upper arch, you would end up with something like this:

¯¯¯|¯¯¯|¯¯¯ Upper
_|_______|_ Lower

So, they remove teeth from the bottom, to make the bite line up 'properly':

¯¯¯|¯¯¯|¯¯¯ Upper
___|___|___ Lower


Now, you have a too small upper arch, and a too small lower arch. But, I don't think that necessarily means your lower jaw actually got smaller. If you look at pictures at this link: http://www.realself.com/question/englan ... opened-for the poster looks like their teeth are tipped inward, but the jaw itself would still have lots of room to re-expand the arch. That link shows the upper jaw, and we're talking about extractions from the lower jaw, but the idea is the same, I think.

[LadyJennifer]

hmm makes sense. thank you very much for the help.

i remember hearing the same from my surgeon when i asked him about the bottom expanding to meet the top (since my top jaw was expanding via surgery) and he also echoed those sentiments, that the lower jaw didn't need widening b/c the top arch and your bite will keep everything in alignment.

that being said, i think it's a whole different ball game when you need to reverse extractions. i don't have much knowledge on it, b/c well there's not many people that have gone through it or can shed much info on it on the internet it seems, but if you open the extraction gaps on the bottom, i assume your arch also needs to be expanded on the bottom to allow the new implants to come in. maybe there are expanders for the bottom too. no idea.

it's so deflating that i just needed to do more research and perhaps consult more orthodontists a few years ago, and all this depression would have been avoided, and the potential of throwing away another 2-3 years of my life, and likely 20+ thousand dollars (including implants, and surely thats a very minimal forecast) would never even be a thought. sighhh

There are expanders for the bottom too. I have one in right now:-)

[jenna1980]

Hello!

New to this forum but SO VERY GLAD I FOUND IT!

I wanted to add on to JumpTheDitch's comment about success with expansion following previous ortho work. My quick story...I am 32 and had significant ortho work as a child from about 9 to 15. I had the works, expander with the key, head gear, neck gear, spacers, metal braces, etc. Also had 4 permanent teeth extracted around the age of 11.

Now 15 years later and never having taken care of my bite and worn a retainer, my entire bite is a disaster. I noticed the shifting as the years went by but it didn't start to really bother me until recently. Maybe its just my getting older. My smile is misaligned, my upper front teeth are starting to shift behind my two front teeth, my jaw is shifted and 2 molars on each upper side have pushed inward creating an odd shape to that normal U shape. I have a crossbite on one side that is significant. Hard to describe I guess. I have seen a few orthos, one said that we can use an expander to focus on pushing those 4 teeth back to be even with the rest and then move forward with either Damon or Invisilign. The other ortho didn't even mention expansion as an option and felt that Damon could do what we needed. He only suggested surgery for jaw alignment (or even something like sliding the chin to even things up).

Sorry for the long story, longer then I thought it was. I desperately want to fix my smile. I refuse to be in pictures because of how my facial shape and structure has changed. My question is, does anyone think that there is a better chance of success with people who had significant ortho done in the past? Significant expansion as well? I have made no decisions. No matter what it will cost a fortune and I need to make sure its the right choice. I'm leaning toward the expander with invisalign at this point.

Thanks a million for any responses!!!!!!

[LadyJennifer]

Hello!

New to this forum but SO VERY GLAD I FOUND IT!

I wanted to add on to JumpTheDitch's comment about success with expansion following previous ortho work. My quick story...I am 32 and had significant ortho work as a child from about 9 to 15. I had the works, expander with the key, head gear, neck gear, spacers, metal braces, etc. Also had 4 permanent teeth extracted around the age of 11.

Now 15 years later and never having taken care of my bite and worn a retainer, my entire bite is a disaster. I noticed the shifting as the years went by but it didn't start to really bother me until recently. Maybe its just my getting older. My smile is misaligned, my upper front teeth are starting to shift behind my two front teeth, my jaw is shifted and 2 molars on each upper side have pushed inward creating an odd shape to that normal U shape. I have a crossbite on one side that is significant. Hard to describe I guess. I have seen a few orthos, one said that we can use an expander to focus on pushing those 4 teeth back to be even with the rest and then move forward with either Damon or Invisilign. The other ortho didn't even mention expansion as an option and felt that Damon could do what we needed. He only suggested surgery for jaw alignment (or even something like sliding the chin to even things up).

Sorry for the long story, longer then I thought it was. I desperately want to fix my smile. I refuse to be in pictures because of how my facial shape and structure has changed. My question is, does anyone think that there is a better chance of success with people who had significant ortho done in the past? Significant expansion as well? I have made no decisions. No matter what it will cost a fortune and I need to make sure its the right choice. I'm leaning toward the expander with invisalign at this point.

Thanks a million for any responses!!!!!!

I don't think I will be much help, but I'm confused why your ortho used expansion, yet extracted four teeth while you we're still growing?!
And if you have a crossbite then it seems you still need expansion...
I'm no expert but I would think you would have as much success as any other adult with similar problems, regardless of previous treatment.

[jenna1980]

[quote="LadyJennifer"][quote="jenna1980"]Hello!

New to this forum but SO VERY GLAD I FOUND IT!

I wanted to add on to JumpTheDitch's comment about success with expansion following previous ortho work. My quick story...I am 32 and had significant ortho work as a child from about 9 to 15. I had the works, expander with the key, head gear, neck gear, spacers, metal braces, etc. Also had 4 permanent teeth extracted around the age of 11.

Now 15 years later and never having taken care of my bite and worn a retainer, my entire bite is a disaster. I noticed the shifting as the years went by but it didn't start to really bother me until recently. Maybe its just my getting older. My smile is misaligned, my upper front teeth are starting to shift behind my two front teeth, my jaw is shifted and 2 molars on each upper side have pushed inward creating an odd shape to that normal U shape. I have a crossbite on one side that is significant. Hard to describe I guess. I have seen a few orthos, one said that we can use an expander to focus on pushing those 4 teeth back to be even with the rest and then move forward with either Damon or Invisilign. The other ortho didn't even mention expansion as an option and felt that Damon could do what we needed. He only suggested surgery for jaw alignment (or even something like sliding the chin to even things up).

Sorry for the long story, longer then I thought it was. I desperately want to fix my smile. I refuse to be in pictures because of how my facial shape and structure has changed. My question is, does anyone think that there is a better chance of success with people who had significant ortho done in the past? Significant expansion as well? I have made no decisions. No matter what it will cost a fortune and I need to make sure its the right choice. I'm leaning toward the expander with invisalign at this point.

Thanks a million for any responses!!!!!![/quote]

I don't think I will be much help, but I'm confused why your ortho used expansion, yet extracted four teeth while you we're still growing?!
And if you have a crossbite then it seems you still need expansion...
I'm no expert but I would think you would have as much success as any other adult with similar problems, regardless of previous treatment.[/quote]


Thanks for your response either way! Both of my current orthos that I had consults with said the same thing, they had NO idea why my older ortho pulled the teeth and they both said they never would have done that. Obviously at that time, there was no internet to research all of this (1990) and my parents just trusted the ortho to know what was best. Quite frustrating actually. Again, thank you for replying =)

[Chicagogal]

Welcome to the forum!

I'm about a year out after my palate expander, and though I'm not exactly an uplifting case (I'm getting brackets back on today), my expansion seems to have held so far without significant tilting or gum damage. If you have that much space from extractions I'd imagine that the expansion would be minimal and therefore a good non-surgical option. Good luck!

[expansionprocess]

I am currently having my prior ortho treatment reversed (as much as it can be reversed). I was convinced by a dentist in 1997 that I "needed" braces. Without any knowledge and trusting the orthodontist I went to that he is doing a needed and experienced orthodontic treatment on me, I went ahead. He extracted 2 upper bicuspids and retracted my teeth. I was 45 years old at the time. During the retraction process I started noticing my sleep was disturbed by choking dreams. By the time the retraction was complete, I was waking up with full blown gasping at night. I told my primary doctor who said to me "it could be nighttime anxiety". She was a top doctor in San Francisco so I trusted her judgement. I was tired all the time - I had just moved and was commuting 70 miles round trip a day so I attributed it to that. A few years went by and I developed diabetes type 2. Then I started developing heart palpitations - svt and atrial fibrillation. I started researching and put all of the pieces of the puzzle together. (I was exhausted and just trying to stay healthy enough to get to work and back and keeping up with the doctor appointments so researching time was not a lot). After putting the pieces of the puzzle together all signs pointed to sleep apnea. I asked my new primary doctor (I had changed the "top doctor in SF" because I felt like my health was going downhill and she was doing nothing for me) for a sleep test which confirmed upper airway resistance syndrome/mild sleep apnea. Now, there is nothing mild about "mild sleep apnea". I told my sleep doctor that I think that my orthodontic treatment contributed to my sleep apnea problem and he said yes that could be. And, sleep apnea can cause diabetes type 2 and heart palpitations, as well as other major issues. How I wish I never had that ortho treatment!!!! After more research, I had 2 tongue radiofrequency treatments done to shrink the base of tongue with little success. So, this year I decided to find a functional orthodontist (after more research) and reverse the damage done to me. I am in my second month of treatment and spaces are opening with the sagittal appliance I am wearing. I am feeling a difference in my sleep with just the little that has been done. This is a two year committment. I will post my journey for anybody else who thinks they may have my type of problems from prior orthodontic treatment. Just remember - NEVER have extractions and don't let anybody push your teeth back into your mouth only to crowd in your tongue. You may find yourself with problems you would never believe.

[ehunt3]

I, too, had non-surgical palatal expansion. I had braces as a child and an expander then, but by the time I was an adult, my cross bite had reappeared. The Orthodontist this time around (different from when I was a child, THANK GOD!) told me we would try the palate expander to expect "dental changes," not "skeletal changes." I don't know if it's because I had my palate "split" as a kid or what, but my palate split again this time around and I got a big old gap between my front teeth.

I turned every other day, about 32 turns total (8 mm), and I probably noticed the gap by about 2 weeks in. But keep in mind, I had this done before as a child, so my palate may have been more brittle because of having already been split once.

I am almost 2 years into metal braces, about 1.5 years out of the palate expander. I wear an "auxillary expansion wire" at night to keep the expansion from relapsing before I get my braces off and get my retainers to keep the teeth in place. SO close to getting my braces off! June 27th, I think!! :) Good luck!

[Nate92]

Digging up some old threads. Looking for some news on non-surgical expansion. How is everyone doing now with their expansion?

[expansionprocess]

I am going on the third month of expansion. I have a sagittal expander and it is opening the spaces where my bicuspids were removed. I'll post further next month.

[JumpTheDitch]

ExpansionProcess i have a sagittal expander also to reopen bicuspid extraction spaces - what type of expander do you have?

I've had a CD Advancer for about 3 wks, it's opened up spaces about 3mm on one side & about 2mm on the other. Since it's bonded to my remaining (first) bicuspids (along with first molars), pushing the front 6 teeth forward, any implants will go in front of my first bicuspids, turning my existing original first bicuspids into second bicuspids. Which seems odd, i guess i assumed I'd be replacing the extracted second bicuspids with implants, rather than shifting the firsts & then replacing them with implants. I figured it would be something along the lines of a straight swap!

[jenna1980]

Well I finally got my expander in! About a week away from my 33rd birthday. No cake for me this go round :)

My ortho went with a Niti Expander and anticipates quick movement with a treatment time of about 4-6 weeks. Yay! He reiterated that he is NOT attempting to expand my "palate" per se, but rather pushing the 2 teeth on either side that collapsed inward back in alignment with the rest. Kind of a kick start before my invisalign treatment. Does that make sense to anyone? We are moving teeth I suppose like one would with braces, just trying to go a bit faster.

I'm on day two and the worst part so far is learning to speak. I can't make a hard EEE sound to save my life. I am counting the days down!

[expansionprocess]

JumpTheDitch - I only know it is a "sagittal". For the first three months I had an upper one only. I now have both upper and lower sagittals starting this week. This is not an easy process - it can be painful at times. But, having sleep apnea is worse. Braces should go on in about 3-4 more months. Then if there is enough space - implants where the original bicuspids were removed.

[LadyJennifer]

3.5 months with my expanders and I'm seeing big changes. I have big gaps appearing between many of my back teeth. I'll post a pic in my braces story.

[SixFootToo]

[quote="LadyJennifer"][quote="jenna1980"]Hello!

New to this forum but SO VERY GLAD I FOUND IT!

I wanted to add on to JumpTheDitch's comment about success with expansion following previous ortho work. My quick story...I am 32 and had significant ortho work as a child from about 9 to 15. I had the works, expander with the key, head gear, neck gear, spacers, metal braces, etc. Also had 4 permanent teeth extracted around the age of 11.

Now 15 years later and never having taken care of my bite and worn a retainer, my entire bite is a disaster. I noticed the shifting as the years went by but it didn't start to really bother me until recently. Maybe its just my getting older. My smile is misaligned, my upper front teeth are starting to shift behind my two front teeth, my jaw is shifted and 2 molars on each upper side have pushed inward creating an odd shape to that normal U shape. I have a crossbite on one side that is significant. Hard to describe I guess. I have seen a few orthos, one said that we can use an expander to focus on pushing those 4 teeth back to be even with the rest and then move forward with either Damon or Invisilign. The other ortho didn't even mention expansion as an option and felt that Damon could do what we needed. He only suggested surgery for jaw alignment (or even something like sliding the chin to even things up).

Sorry for the long story, longer then I thought it was. I desperately want to fix my smile. I refuse to be in pictures because of how my facial shape and structure has changed. My question is, does anyone think that there is a better chance of success with people who had significant ortho done in the past? Significant expansion as well? I have made no decisions. No matter what it will cost a fortune and I need to make sure its the right choice. I'm leaning toward the expander with invisalign at this point.

Thanks a million for any responses!!!!!![/quote]

I don't think I will be much help, but I'm confused why your ortho used expansion, yet extracted four teeth while you we're still growing?!
And if you have a crossbite then it seems you still need expansion...
I'm no expert but I would think you would have as much success as any other adult with similar problems, regardless of previous treatment.[/quote]

There are some Orthodontists who almost guarentee they can fix problems like this with Damon System.