Cost

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#1 Post by **JonesNY** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:49 pm

Hi,

What is a reasonable range of cost for a class 1 bite, "mild" crowding top and bottom. The kind of teeth where the orthodontist asks if you’ve ever had braces before and is surprised when you say no. The estimated treatment time is 9-12 months. (These are my teeth.)

I was given one estimate of less than 3,000 and one ridiculous estimate of over 5,000 in upstate NY; both from well-respected orthodontists. The 5,000 was so ridiculous as they said, “oh, very simple case” and I’d already been given an estimate of over two thousand less. Gosh. I didn’t say anything though, but I’m never recommending anyone I know to go to those people.

Anyhow, I read that the average cost for two years of treatment is around 5,000. What about for less than a year?

#2 Post by **Meemoo** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:46 am

I've been given a treatment time of 12-14 months (so less than the average) and it will still cost me $5800AU plus the cost of the retainers afterwards.

#3 Post by **jambo532** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:17 pm

I paid 5400 in full ( took out a loan) and that was with the 10% discount for paying it all up front. My estimated time is really rough... he said between 10 and 24+ months. Mine includes everything tho... xrays, adjustments, retainers, blah blah.
www.allbraced.blogspot.com

#4 Post by **drrick** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:55 am

Treatment fees are not necessarily based heavily on time.

Regardless of time you still have all the records, braces, wires, retainer, etc. There may be some extra chair time involved of course but not necessarily that much more.

#5 Post by **JonesNY** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:05 pm

Eh, that makes sense, but when the cost varies by as much as 2,000 dollars, I smell a rat. I mean, if one doctor is happy doing it for 2,000 less (i.e. they're making a good profit), that says a lot!

Braces are overpriced compared with other medical services, in my opinion. Especially the clear retainer systems. What a joke they are in terms of price. Those retainers cost next to nothing to make (literally), the people in India moving the models certainly aren't getting much money, or the computer simulations certainly are not a significant cost in this day and age (not when a cell phone application can play chess at 2,900 now), and the actual involvement from orthodontists in the treatment can be fairly minimal. Still I hear people who pay 5,000 to 10,000 dollars for these little plastic trays!

The average Ortho is making 140,000 (with some making much more), while a college professor of English Literature with a PhD from an Ivy-League school is lucky to find any employment in academia now (or any respectable employment at all), and still probably won't make much over 85,000. Then again, the 70,000 plus difference in salary still would never be worth it to me.

"You anti-dentite bastard."

Of course, braces are important for many people who have major bite issues, but they're also, to an extent, something else that people have been convinced they "need," when this is simply not the case. Whenever I'm in Japan or Great Britain, I realize that no one really gives a damn about such things (though this is changing somewhat). In Japan, having crooked teeth (which is the norm) is even considered somewhat Kawaii (cute). They're teeth: they're for chewing and talking. This whole aesthetic mania feeding things like braces and tooth whitening is quite blown out of proportion.

If they were more affordable for people, I'd be less drab about the issue, but they're quite a hardship for many people. I do think, however, that as more and more of these clear retainers make it to "generic" form (not invisalign), you'll see the cost drop dramatically.

Disclaimer: I'm certainly not opposed to braces, even for aesthetics, as people should be free to do whatever is salient to them (in my case, it meant getting a metal retainer to move a molar to help with chewing).

#6 Post by **drrick** » Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:32 am

Wow.

Have you ever run a business? Do you know what overhead is involved...particularly in a medical office?

The avg dental office is close to 80% overhead. So if you pay $5000 for a case then that means after taxes the doc gets about $500 in spendable cash.
When you ask for money off it comes right out of the doctors pocket (overhead still has to be paid) that is why many will not give discounts.
Add into the mix that most docs coming out of school have 300k in school loans and then a new office is on the order of 500k. So it isnt just the cost for materials, etc. Heck I will GIVE you the braces and rent you 5 hours in my office if you want to do the treatment on yourself.

You are forgetting alot of costs to make the clear aligners...research and development for one, legal costs, in addition to marketing and everything else. it isnt just the wage for the worker and the materials -- also dont forget that factory wasnt free.
We are talking about millions and millions of dollars invested.

Ther is far more invlolved in discussing costs in separate offices.
The old addage is:
PRICE QUAILITY CONVENIENCE -- Pick 2

The cheaper office MAY have more limited hours, make you wait in the waiting room forever, uses lower quality materials, etc.
Also the skill and experience level of the doctor is a role.

BTW, No one NEEDS braces. Heck you dont even need teeth.
You also do not need big screen tv's, fancy vacations, fast cars, cosmetic surgery, tivo's, pro-active, etc. It is about what you WANT.

#7 Post by **kilikena311** » Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:43 am

I'm suprised that people here think that just because these people have the title of Dr that they are automatically rolling in money and are trying to screw us out of ours. I find it offensive to even bring up such topics here. My parent's had a beloved family doctor who had to quit practicing because all she could do was break even (Insurance plans pay relatively small amount for services) and her husband told her that it wasn't worth it to keep practicing. We are lucky to have these professionals to help us with our needs.

#8 Post by **drrick** » Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:48 am

Thank you SO MUCH for mentioning that.
Many of my colleagues have had to close up shop and some even had to declare bankruptcy. My wifes doctor gave up practice since the price of malpractice insurance was so high he couldnt afford it. Really sad.

#9 Post by **TumbleDryLow** » Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:12 am

The bottom line is that it really does not matter why there is the discrepancy in price. The question to ask is: do you as the consumer feel you are getting a good value (define value however you want--it will vary by person.) If you don't think the more expensive ortho is good value, then don't go there. That's your power as the consumer. Basic economics says that if enough people do this he will eventually go out of business, lower his prices, or be validated somehow (usually pleased patients giving glowing referrals/references) for charging more.

FWIW. I consulted 4 othos. I chose the most expensive one (by about 1500) b/c they impressed me on all levels: location, office/clinic staff, technology, knowledge, flexible appointment times, and they are really, really nice people. The value I got for those extras warranted the extra cost.

#10 Post by **socksy** » Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:18 pm

Sounds like the OP has an axe to grind with doctors and/or dentists? Kilikena put her view on the subject very eloquently and I completely agree.

Like Tumble, I also ended up choosing the most expensive orthodontist out of the multiple consults I went to. I am so glad I did. I really feel like I'm getting my money's worth.

#11 Post by **ashesgap** » Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:57 pm

I think my ortho is pretty lucky....he's been in this town for 26 years and is still the only certified ortho. I'm pretty sure he owns the land his office is on, same with his cousin (the dentist) across the street. Even though i'm paying about 1500 less than was quoted in Little Rock, i don't feel shorted at all. You can't put a price on experience. I don't think any of these services should ever be based on price alone...the expensive guy can just as easily mess up your teeth, or have rude office staff.
If you were an orthodontist...who went through years of school...would you lower your prices just cause some one thought you charged too much? No. These guys deserve the money they are making, and there is no law saying you have to go with the expensive one.

#12 Post by **DrJasonKTam** » Wed Mar 31, 2010 6:12 pm

Sounds like this thread has it pretty accurately, so there is no need to reiterate.

I will add in the comment that SUCCESSFUL and PREDICTABLE aligner therapy IS directed by the doctor. Aligners are just like any other appliance. You rely on the experience of the orthodontist to properly diagnose, treatment plan, and properly execute the treatment.

#13 Post by **JonesNY** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:10 pm

A lot of BS going on in here. It’s actually quite amusing to see how bent out of shape people got over so little (as well as to read the personal attacks on me). Case in point, I made a perfectly salient comment (infused with humor) about the ways in which our society tells us we “need” certain things and I received the asinine response of “Heck you don’t even need teeth.” Thanks for that.

The misinformation, and shady economic statistics aren’t any better, either. The average medical school debt is not 300,000—it is, in fact, about half of that. Furthermore, in the case of those little plastic retainers, the absurd idea that the nominal cost of research for an established technology, as well as the cost of manufacturing them somehow justify an exorbitant final price of 5,000 to 10,000 dollars is ridiculous. There are loads of products that cost far, far more to develop, research and manufacture than plastic tooth retainers, that are not sold directly to consumers. Yes, orthodontists review the treatment, but they’re not manufacturing the retainers. It’s BS—pure and simple.

Frankly, you guys come off as completely out of touch with reality (perhaps many of you missed the recent health care debate before Congress, or are unaware that doctors make far, far more in the United States than anywhere in the world). Your portrayal of the life an orthodontist as being one step above a coal-miner and one step below a community college professor would make a good short story though.

Here, straight from CBS Marketwatch’s List of the 10 Most Overpayed Professions:

4) Orthodontists

“For a 35-hour workweek, orthodontists earn a median $350,000 a year, according to the Journal of Clinical Orthodontics. General dentists, meanwhile, earn about half as much working 39 hours a week on average, in a much dirtier job.

The difference in their training isn't like that of a heart surgeon vs. a family-practice doctor. It's a mere two years, and a vastly rewarding investment if you're among the chosen: U.S. dental schools have long been criticized for keeping orthodontists in artificially low supply to keep their income up.

This isn't brain surgery: Orthodontists simply manipulate teeth in a growing child's mouth -- and often leave adjustment work to assistants whose handiwork they merely sign off on. What makes their windfall egregious is that they stick parents with most of the inflated bill, since orthodontia insurance benefits cover nowhere near as large a percentage as for general dentistry.”

Obviously, good service is worth spending extra money on, but there people in all professions that are, er, well “crooked” and orthodontists are no different.

And, who are you to evaluate whether or not I'm being received an estimate that was too high? The fact of the matter is that it was thousands more than the other estimate, the other office was, in fact, nicer, the other orthodontist went to a better school, and I've heard personal, negative testimony from others that the higher-estimate establishment is a "rip off."

#14 Post by **JonesNY** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:19 pm

And let me add, I've heard the exact same kind of responses from corporate lawyers (WAY overpaid in comparison to teachers, or say, people who practice Constitutional law, or do indigent defense).

You guys aren't fooling anyone.

Disclaimer: I have nothing against any doctors or dentists as a whole, but given how rude some of your responses were, I felt it necessary to call you on the BS.

#15 Post by **drrick** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:22 am

I hope you are happy with the ortho you choose and I hope he/she is happy taking you on as a patient.
Good luck.