Headgear and not rubberbands?

[BA5]

Is it possible to use reverse pull headgear without also using class III rubberbands between the top and bottom braces?

The reason I'm asking is because then it might not be necessary to have braces at all, but something like this with a permanent retainer type thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGdbLOocydM

Is that picture actual possible like they show it, without braces (brackets+wires)?

Thanks.

[sirwired]

After such a treatment to haul the jaw forward, I expect there's a follow-up with brackets to get the alignment correct. Just like treatment with an expander is usually (always?) followed up by conventional braces.

Most people have an "integrated" bite before starting orthodontic treatment. (As in, the teeth "mesh", even if they are at crazy and/or unhealthy angles to do so.) When you pull teeth out of that bite through whatever means for whatever reason, you'll need to do something else to re-integrate the bite prior to retention.

[BA5]

Thanks for your comments sirwired. It really helps me to get ideas, as I'm just starting to try to understand how these things work. I had braces as a kid, but never tried to understand anything about it - just doing what I was told.

I will be talking to my doc about my options, but I want to have some knowledge and ideas before I do.

In my case, my teeth are perfectly straight and fit together perfectly (I'm not exaggerating, textbook perfect). Except, the only problem is that my top teeth need to come forward 2-3mm because it too hard to get my jaw back far enough - I can do it, but it takes effort. The push headgear as a kid went too far apparently. Since my bite is good and it won't be changing, I wonder if that means the fit of the teeth will help make them stay where they are supposed to relative to each other. Like, the act of chewing would keep them in line. Wishful thinking?

[sirwired]

I don't see how you can maintain an integrated bite if every tooth in one arch moves 2-3mm forward in unison. That's a big adjustment to expect your lower arch to match without some encouragement.

Why do you want to avoid braces so much? If you are walking around with headgear, I hardly think braces will really make much aesthetic difference.

[BA5]

You're right, if I had to wear headgear during the day, braces would be the least of my worries.

Reverse pull headgear would only be worn at night, or at least at home. I don't think anyone wears that during the day, do they?? It's a huge contraption on your face. I can't imagine. I've never seen it in public.

If all my teeth really could all move in unison without braces, then my bite would be good. That retainer-like device in the youtube video, has support that goes around the inside of all the teeth. I wonder how much that support does to push everything in unison? No tooth could move inward, but there's nothing to keep a tooth from being pushed outward, except my own bite/chewing.

[sirwired]

It's a tall order to expect your lower teeth to move without braces, or for your top teeth to remain perfectly inline during the move. (As you pointed out, the lack of a labial bow means your upper teeth will likely splay outwards. And the same thing is going to happen to your lowers if they move to maintain your bite... they are going to shove the front lowers outwards.)

I've never heard of a functional appliance (such as headgear or the various types of expanders) not being followed up with braces.

[BA5]

Just to be clear, I don't want my lower teeth to move. The top teeth need to move forward to be where my lower teeth are now when my jaw is relaxed. Right now, the only way to get my teeth together is to use muscles to get my lower jaw back. It takes serious effort to get my lower jaw back far enough. It helps to push with my hands, with one hand pushing on my chin and one hand pushing against the back of my head. Pulling all the top teeth forward is an effort to correct this. When I eat now, if I don't consciously strain to pull my lower jaw back, my teeth grind. It's not possible for me to keep that up, so my teeth grind all the time when I bite or chew. The back of my top front teeth grind against the top of my bottom front teeth. And the grinding of the front top teeth is from top to bottom. My top front teeth practically meet right on top of the lower teeth.

Here's an illustration of the profile of my top and bottom teeth with my jaw relaxed:
)
)

If I pull my lower jaw back, I can get like this where I can "correctly" bite down (but it's only "correct" if we ignore the fact that I'm straining to get my lower jaw back, or using my hands to push my jaw back):
)
) <-

What I need to do is pull the top teeth forward like this so I can keep my lower jaw relaxed when I bite or chew:
) ->
)

[BA5]

My ascii art didn't work. Try again with dashes instead of spaces:

Here's an illustration of the profile of my top and bottom teeth with my jaw relaxed:
--)
--)

If I pull my lower jaw back, I can get like this where I can "correctly" bite down (but it's only "correct" if we ignore the fact that I'm straining to get my lower jaw back, or using my hands to push my jaw back):
--)
) <-

What I need to do is pull the top teeth forward like this so I can keep my lower jaw relaxed when I bite or chew:
----) ->
--)