I would really value your opinion ......

This is the place to post general questions and comments about all areas of orthodontic treatment. Before you post a question, use the forum's SEARCH tool to see if your question has already been answered!

New Members: YOU MUST MAKE A POST WITHIN 24 HOURS OF REGISTERING OR YOUR ACCOUNT WILL BE DELETED. In other words, don't sign up unless you plan to actively participate in the message board immediately. This is necessary to keep out spammers and lurkers with bad intentions. Of course, you can read most forums on the board without registering.

DO NOT POST FULL-FACE PHOTOS or personal contact information on this website. We have had problems with people re-posting members' photos on fetish websites. Please only post photos of your teeth, not your whole face. Keep your email and your personal information private. Thank you.

Moderator: bbsadmin

Message
Author
Boodles
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2008 3:46 am

I would really value your opinion ......

#1 Post by Boodles »

Hi Everyone
I would really value your opinion on a dilema that I/we have.

I am the mother of a 14 year old girl (14 going on 24 in many ways!). I thought about posting this on the parents forum but would really like your opinions from both parents and patients so I decided to post here. I hope that is OK.

My daughter was refered by our dentist for orthodontic work what must be about 2.5 years ago now. Her problem was that her top jaw, whilst lining up perfectly with her bottom jaw on her left was smaller and sat inside her lower jaw on the right. Also the tooth that was to the left of her eye tooth on the left had come through where the eye tooth should be and therefore it could not come through. She still had a few baby teeth at that time and the orthodontist advised getting the tooth that was in the way removed and then waiting until the eye tooth had come down and all the baby teeth had come out before proceeding. She said that jaw surgery may be necessary in the future but she thought that we would see what could be done with orthodontics first. Although all this sounds quite severe, on first meeting her you would not have noticed and indeed people would say "what does she need braces for?"

The offending tooth was removed but the proceedure really traumatised her. We found out afterwards that her mouth was not really numb when they did it but she didn't like to say - and never having had dental work before she probably did not know how it was supposed to feel.

We waited and waited and although the baby teeth came out and adult teeth grew the eye tooth did not show. After 2 year of waiting it was decided to expose it surgically. At this point the original orthodontist left and her replacement seemed to be a bit more gung-ho in her attitude and seemed keener to try surgery first. I resisited this as at just 14 I felt that the original orthodontist's idea seemed to make more sense.

Once the tooth had been exposed she was fitted with braces and a quad helix all on the same day :cry: and it was all very uncomfortable especially the quad helix which gave her horrible blisters on her tongue. I must say though that my usually stroppy teenager has never complained bless her :)

The quad helix came out after about 3 months and to be honest the improvement with that and the braces over the last 6 months has been amazing.

However, and here is my dilema, at our last visit the ortho announced that she wanted to remove one of her bottom front incisors. My initial reaction revolved around my daughter having to go through this again and calming her down as she wa distressed. We asked if she could be sedated and was told she could and so she accepted it. However we reserved a final decision until the next visit.

The trouble is I cannot see how this will look right. It will obviously not be symetrical and this rally worries me. I have spoken to the orthodontist since and she admits that the benefits are almost entirely 'cosmetic'. The effect on her bite will be minimal. The tooth is very slightly twisted and the front of the arch of the teeth at the bottom is slightly flattened but to be honest you would really have to look at her open mouth to see these things. She said that 'only you would notice' the asymetry if she were to have the extraction but isn't it often the things that 'only you' notice that bother you. The slight kink in your nose, the spot on your chin? And to be honest I don't think anyone would notice the slightly twisted tooth either.

My daughter would rather not have it done but will do so if I advise her to. My gut feeling is to say no. It seems so final! After all if she wants to undertake further orthodontic work later for a slightly twisted tooth she can but we can't put a tooth back!

It is very unusual for me to not put my trust in proffessional opinion but this time things just don't feel right :(

So what do you think? Please be honest - I rally value any opinions.

Thank you very much for reading :)

User avatar
bb
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:39 am

#2 Post by bb »

If the problem is not visible and is not affecting her bite then, speaking as a parent, I'd be inclined to leave it.
If she would like to address this as an adult she'll have the option but you can't put that incisor back once it's out.
Image

Boodles
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2008 3:46 am

#3 Post by Boodles »

Thank you bb.

That is what my instinct is telling me too. But it just seems odd to be flying in the face of proffessional opinion. I have noticed since this happened that I have a twisted bottom canine. It is twisted more than my daughters incisor and to be honest unitl now I hadn't even noticed it!

Thanks again :)

DireWire
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 11:12 am

#4 Post by DireWire »

Let me start with two general comments.

First, you are approaching this with the necessary thoroughness and diligence, so I'm confident that whatever decision you take will not be a bad one.

Second, let me state my own personal bias upfront: I'm clinging on to my teeth, and I'd need a VERY good and VERY convincing reason to let one go.

Therefore, I would ask for a very clear explanation of the benefit of the extraction. I'd probably also go to another ortho for a second opinion. My experience suggests that they are all over the place. One will tell you that the tooth has to go, the next will tell you it is entirely possible to get a good result without the extraction. You'll have to make up your own mind, and I personally weigh a Hollywood-perfected smile very low compared to my general health. My health includes having as many of my teeth as possible.

Ask more than one ortho. See who can give you a good and plausible explanation. Look for consistency. If possible, try to find a dentist or ortho with a good reputation. And make sure you find a balance between the benefits of the extraction and the cost (which means more the tooth than the money) that you are comfortable with.


DireWire

who just let go of two wisdom teeth to achieve a correct bite... and only because they were wisdom teeth
who was once told he would need jaw surgery and gets now a perfect bite without it. Rely on multiple opinions and common sense
Image
Bite plate gone for good after @3 mths

Clo
Posts: 969
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2004 5:05 am
Location: Belgium
Contact:

#5 Post by Clo »

Boodles wrote:she admits that the benefits are almost entirely 'cosmetic'. The effect on
her bite will be minimal.
6 front upper teeth, 5 lower can still be symmetrical. The line between the upper
centrals then goes through the middle of the middle lower incisor. Some members
here had such a treatment, and quite often you had to look very well to notice it.

BUT, but ...

these were adults. With no growing jaws and with less "opportunities" to correct.
Since she is only 14 and together with what I quoted, I would say don't extract.
Therefor, I want to second what DireWire said. I would want a very convincing
reason why this would be needed. If all issues are indeed so small, I am sure there
are other ways to correct them. Your ortho may want to do this, but know that
you are perfectly entitled to refuse.

Boodles
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2008 3:46 am

#6 Post by Boodles »

Thank you Direwire and Clo for your comments.

Maybe I should have made it clear that the ortho is insistant that, without extraction no further improvement can be made to the bottom teeth so we either accept things as they are or go for the extraction.

If at all possible perhaps I should try to get a photo to post here so the extent of the problem can be seen. However I am rather technologically challenged ....

I think I may well ask another ortho for an opinion. I will ask around and try to find one that comes recommended.

The point abut her jaw growing is avery valid one. Even if nothing further can be done at the moment, to be honest the amount of twisting is so small that any further growth, however small, might enable it to be corrected later in life without extraction.

Thank you all so much for your input. I really appreciate it! :)

Filip
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:31 am
Location: Europe

#7 Post by Filip »

I'm with DireWire on this one - I would be VERY, VERY cautious in removing healthy/natural teeth. I'm subjetive in my opinion, I had a premolar (i.e. tooth after eye tooth) in my upper jaw removed at the age of 12 to "create more space". The result was asymmetry, which in my opinion has caused slight asymmetry in my left/side facial structure (only I can see it, but my nose points slightly to the weaker side).

I would not trust an orthodontist who suggested to remove healthy teeth.

I would even discard an orthodontist as unprofessional who suggested to remove one healthy tooth, thereby risking asymmetry, especially in a growing facial structure (which includes age 14). Further, mistakes made now with pulling healthy teeth will be almost irreversible. Better to try with other means before making a decision that is Final and Irreversible.

There are always exceptions, including to my opinions above, but I insist in seeking 2, 3 or even 4 other opinions. I'm convinced that 9 "tooth pulls" out of 10 could and should have been avoided. Make sure you ask Orthodontists, not dentists.

As you can see, I have a firm opinion in this matter.

Good luck to your daughter (and you)!

Filip
Image

RPE for 5 months
In: 08-Feb-07 Out: 20-Jul-07

Molar rotator for 2 months
In: 24-Jul-07 Out: 14-Sept-07

UGHBRACES
Posts: 449
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:56 pm

#8 Post by UGHBRACES »

I'd say remove it and go for perfect alignment. I was talking to some friends about how i may have to get 1 lower incisor removed(as opposed to having 4 premolars removed, 2 top 2 bottom), turns out a few of them had the same thing done when they had braces in their teens and you would never ever know it.

DireWire
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 11:12 am

#9 Post by DireWire »

I'd say remove it and go for perfect alignment
Well, of course I disagree. What is "perfect alignment" vs a healthy tooth?

[the ortho] admits that the benefits are almost entirely 'cosmetic'. The effect on her bite will be minimal.
The tooth is very slightly twisted and the front of the arch of the teeth at the bottom is slightly flattened but to be honest you would really have to look at her open mouth to see these things.
To me, it is blatantly obvious. I would NEVER give up a healthy tooth for this. But I have my personal bias, of course.

Here is another way of framing this: If that twisted tooth were the only issue with your daughter's teeth, would ou go to an ortho in the first place?

If not, why sacrifice a tooth?

DireWire
Image
Bite plate gone for good after @3 mths

UGHBRACES
Posts: 449
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:56 pm

#10 Post by UGHBRACES »

DireWire wrote:
I'd say remove it and go for perfect alignment
Well, of course I disagree. What is "perfect alignment" vs a healthy tooth?


If you are serious, its more aesthetically pleasing and to me its worth it. Its not like i will miss that tooth, i will be able to do everything i could should that tooth still be there, plus it will look straighter and better. If you'd rather crooked crowded teeth just for the sake of saying you kept that single tooth, then hey thats your prerogative.

User avatar
PuppySmiles
Posts: 199
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:56 pm

Re: I would really value your opinion ......

#11 Post by PuppySmiles »

Boodles wrote:It is very unusual for me to not put my trust in proffessional opinion but this time things just don't feel right :(
Hi, Boodles!

If things don't feel right, I agree with you that it's a good idea to get more information before making a decision.

Are you in a position to look at any other orthodontists? In some places, ortho's offer free consultations. For something as drastic as removing a healthy tooth from a healthy mouth, I would try getting a second opinion. And a third and a fourth, if necessary.

Here's my angle: before getting braces, I went to consultations with 4 different orthos - to find the one I was most comfortable with, and to get as many opinions as possible on the surgery they were recommending.

In your situation, it sounds like your current ortho is a replacement person, someone you didn't even get to choose.

Boodles
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2008 3:46 am

#12 Post by Boodles »

Thank you all so much for your opinions!

I really wish I could get a photo on here!

Ughbraces believe me I agree with you in many ways. If the problem were even slightly worse I would probably not have any qualms about proceeding. But the degee of twisting is really very very slight and I do not think it would be any more noticeable than having fewer teeth in front. As far as overcrowding is concerned other than the slight twist you would not notice it! The ortho said originally that the front of the arch of the teeth at the bottom is slightly flattened but I cannot even see that it is and in fact when I spoke to her the second time she didn't even mention this. I am sure that as you say many people have had this done and I am sure that it is not very noticeable and great results have been achieved. But then maybe the problem they had to fix was greater than the one my daughter now has with this one tooth. If it were affecting lots of her teeth and causing general overcrowding then I would not be so unsure. But the fact that it seems that the ortho seems to want to take it out just because it is slightly twisted seems to me a bit extreme.

Direwire - in answer to your question, no, if this were the only problem we would not have consluted an orthodontist. And neither would our dentist have reffered us.

I would just like to clarify that I have paid up front for all this work so there will be no additional cost either way so that is not an issue. (I am in the UK and although she could have been treated on the NHS I paid so that she could have aesthetic braces and various other advantages. The package includes all treatment no matter how long it takes) It will cost me to get a second opinion or if I change orthodontists now but I will do that if necessary.

Thank you all again. Your comments are helping me greatly

Clo
Posts: 969
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2004 5:05 am
Location: Belgium
Contact:

#13 Post by Clo »

Hi,

there is one thing I do not understand. This one tooth is a bit twisted and you
tell the front of the lower arch is a bit flattened. Now, sometimes when a tooth
is a bit twisted, it needs some more space compared to a perfectly aligned tooth.
This is due to the thickness of a tooth. But this depends also on the exact form
of the tooth. But more importantly, when they would make the lower arch a bit
rounder, then they would need "some more teeth material". This could help to
correct crowding and this twisting. Of course this can only be done if the bite or
the relation to the uppers make it possible. And there is still IPR, interproximal
reduction. They make each or some teeth a lil less wide to gain some more
space. Even 0,1 mm on each side of each tooth will gain almost a full mm when
they only do the front 4 teeth. 0,1 mm is totally harmless. But a full mm can
open up a lot of extra opportunities. So, making the arch a bit rounder and
doing some IPR here and there. Sounds very interesting to me if that can save
a precious perfect front tooth.

Boodles
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2008 3:46 am

#14 Post by Boodles »

Hi Clo

I am not familiar with this IPR that you speak of but I can say that the ortho did 'file' between her front two bottom incisors at one point. However she has not filed anywhere else. To the untrained eye I would have thought that 1mm would be more than enough space to correct the 'twist'. Butthen what do I know .....

I am so glad I posted here. Everyone's comments have made me really examine my own thoughts. And your post has made me realise that a part of me thinks that this ortho seems keen to take what to her may be the easier option. There is a part of me that makes me wonder if, if we resist the extraction she may find other things to try. As I said she does seem a bit gung-ho about extraction and indded surgery.

Could you please explain a little more about what this IPR entails? Then maybe I will suggest it myself and see what she says.

Many thanks

Wobblydeb
Posts: 233
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:57 am
Location: UK
Contact:

#15 Post by Wobblydeb »

A single lower incisor extraction was one of my options when I started treatment recently. By searching and reading the articles on here I learnt a lot. Some things to consider include:

What is causing the rotation, and is it fixable? e.g. If there is insufficient space for all of the adult teeth, then extraction(s) may be the most suitable treatment. I had 4 molars removed at a similar age to your daughter and have not regretted it - there was no way all of my adult teeth would fit.

How big is the issue? i.e. If more space is required, how much more are you talking? My lower incisor is about 6mm wide. I opted not to get it extracted, and will have a total of 2.2mm IPR (Interproximal Reduction) instead. That means shaving between 0.2 and 0.4mm from 8 different places in my lower arch.

How much of an overjet might she end up with? After extracting the lower incisor, the lower arch will close together slightly further back than it is at present. This can lead to an overjet - where the top teeth are noticably further forward than the lower teeth. This was the reason I did not proceed with the extraction myself. My dentist said that my result would be more stable with all of the teeth meeting correctly.

What is likely to happen as your daughter grows older and her wisdom teeth come in? If you go for IPR and get a decent result now, will she have lost that option if her wisdom teeth come in and and more crowding starts to occur?

Is the best option perhaps far more complex? e.g. jaw surgery and / or moving teeth backwards? Extracting a single lower incisor definitely feels like a cosmetic fix (particularly if there are no problems with that tooth hitting others incorrectly).
Initial set: 31 upper / 17 lower
1st refinement: 14 upper / 10 lower
2nd refinement: 10 upper / 5 lower

Post Reply